Vegans and Vegetarians » Discussions

The most ridiculous argument you've ever heard

 
  • Albent sagte:
    alles_ist_FNORD escribió:
    Albent sagte:
    Why I can't consume milk? Cows need to take out that stuff once a day, so what, we just drop it on the grass?
    Like eggs. Chickens without a rooster is like sperm without a ovum.

    As XemonerdX said quite well, cows (and all other mammals) do not give milk out of the blue but only after a variable period of time after their pregnancy.

    What you just said is like saying.
    Hey, there are black slaves around - why not use their workforce if they're already there?
    Or...
    Hey, there are jews in the concentration camps - why not use their hair for wigs if they're growing it anyway?

    Just because something is part of the established system doesn't mean that it's moral or unobjectionable to continue doing it or to be a part of it. Just because we humans put all those animals in all those horrible conditions doesn't mean that it's okay to use their 'products'. There would be no eggs, milk and natural-death-meat (see the "Thoughts?"-thread) to 'spill and waste' if we weren't the creators of these situations.

    JAJAJAJA the most stupid argument for veganism I've ever read. Try again ;D

    I don't get it...
    If consuming eggs and milk includes a lot of suffering and killing and if these processes are our doing, if YOU are the 'orderer' of these awful conditions and doings... how is it stupid to want to end this awfulness for ever and to NOT want to participate in it / CO-FINANCE it until the end of times?

    Do you think that the egg and milk industry will someday magically disappear and then there will be no more eggs and milk to spill and therefore no more ethical predicament for you to let eggs and milk 'go to waste'?
    It's up to us to say stop and boycott these products/horrors.

    Maybe you just don't think that egg and milk 'production' is horrible in any way and then there would be no point in discussing it at all. You would've to see it and read of it for yourself.... well, and you can do that quite easily with all those documentaries out there.
    Also I still don't get what you felt to be stupid about my argumentation. Could you make it a little more explicit/clearer?

    Oh, and the part about the concentration camp-wigs isn't made up... it really happened because nazi-people wanted to make the most of it and didn't want to 'waste' anything.

    • XemonerdX a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 18 oct. 2011, 17h24m
    Albent said:
    A) Cows give milk all the time, what are you saying? The problem, for business, is that the "normal" amount of milk that the cow gives by day is not enough, so they make the cow to have calfs one after other.

    Cows do not give milk 'all the time', who told you this? It would not even make sense for a cow to produce milk all the time without a calf to look after (not to mention it would lead to serious injuries with her udder/mammary glands).
    And you do know what happens to those calfs that are born at dairy farms right? Exactly, they are sold & killed for veal (just like their mothers once their bodies will not produce enough milk anymore after giving birth to yet another calf). So the milk you consume is directly responsible for more animal deaths.

    Albent said:
    B) Oh, you think that eating a chicken ovum it's not very appetizing? Because healthy vegetables are grown on manure, MANURE. That tasty, right?

    What are you even trying to say here?! No, I don't think an egg is very appetizing. Apparently you do. Great. I don't see what that has to do with growing vegetables. Unless you don't eat vegetables (which I would not recommend, but hey, be my guest).

    • Albent a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 18 oct. 2011, 18h40m
    SGDminea escribió:
    So, consuming dairy products and eggs includes killing. Also, the environment and circumstances these hens and cows spend their lives in are also highly unethical.

    And I say it doesn't in which point?

    Cows can give milk if you give them I-don't-know-which hormone and there's no need to give birth. And there's no pain for them, and I have milk, and also, a pet.
    But no, no milk, because you read "milk" and you cry out loud.
    I call them fascigans.
    Enjoy.

  • Albent sagte:
    SGDminea escribió:
    So, consuming dairy products and eggs includes killing. Also, the environment and circumstances these hens and cows spend their lives in are also highly unethical.

    And I say it doesn't in which point?

    Cows can give milk if you give them I-don't-know-which hormone and there's no need to give birth. And there's no pain for them, and I have milk, and also, a pet.
    But no, no milk, because you read "milk" and you cry out loud.
    I call them fascigans.
    Enjoy.

    None of the last posters is in any way fascistoid, none of us comes along with restrictions or orders.
    We also do not 'cry out loud' when we hear 'MILK', we accept that others choose to consume it but you give the impression to think that milk and egg production doesn't include any pain ...... and that's a big load of nonsense.
    All we do is trying to understand your fragments of an argumentation.

    Like.... what is "And I say it doesn't in which point?" even supposed to express?

    Again, cows DO NOT GIVE MILK out of the blue.
    They need to give birth at least once to start lactating. Afterwards there are different methods in the industry to keep the milk 'production' up:
    - impregnating a cow again and again
    - impregnating a cow again and again including the method of increasing the number of embryos through artificial hormones to raise the produced milk amounts
    - impregnating a cow once and keeping the milk production up through artificial hormones (like bovine somatotropin, prostaglandin, progesterone and other sick stuff)

    The use of hormones isn't without pain. It leads to mastitis, lameness and more painful shit. Also, like mentioned x-times before, milk cows get killed when they become too old (which is after a fifth or less of their natural lifespan) which isn't without pain. They get separated from their calves for ever after giving birth which is emotional pain for both.

    I can't decide wether you are just a web-troll or playing ignorant.

    If you consume eggs and milk/dairy products 'cause you LIKE them and don't give a shit about the animals in the system.....
    or if you LIKE eggs and dairy, do care about the animals a lot but don't have the willpower to cut them from your diet for several reasons....
    FINE!
    Just don't say that it's free from suffering or even a moral thing to do 'cause eggs and milk would be wasted if we/you wouldn't consume them - that's a big fat lie.

    • Albent a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 19 oct. 2011, 3h14m
    Use of hormones doesn't bring pain to cows, as it doens't in humans, or any other animal. It's not healthy when you abuse of them (the hormones), but I doesn't need to produce one galon per day day, so why would I abuse?


    I never said that milk and eggs big-productions doens't bring pain and torture to cows and chickens; that's why I said WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT HAVING CHICKENS IN MY HOUSE? They give one egg per day, and if I have no rooster, the egg will NEVER become a chicken. So, I just drop it into the trash can?


    And that's why I bought my cheese and my eggs in a farm-market, where you also can see that there's no explotation of the animals.

    • SGDminea a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 19 oct. 2011, 6h33m
    It's good that you care a little about the origin of your dairy and eggs, but I still feel (and I really feel this is the point of veganism) that keeping animals for producing stuff that benefits the owner financially is not the right thing to do.

    Tonzura koite!
  • Albent sagte:
    Use of hormones doesn't bring pain to cows, as it doens't in humans, or any other animal. It's not healthy when you abuse of them (the hormones), but I doesn't need to produce one galon per day day, so why would I abuse?

    I never said that milk and eggs big-productions doens't bring pain and torture to cows and chickens; that's why I said WHAT'S WRONG ABOUT HAVING CHICKENS IN MY HOUSE? They give one egg per day, and if I have no rooster, the egg will NEVER become a chicken. So, I just drop it into the trash can?

    And that's why I bought my cheese and my eggs in a farm-market, where you also can see that there's no explotation of the animals.

    To me, principally, even the use of hormones on animals is abuse, it's even worse if it leads to sicknesses and malformations (and some of that happens in the majority of cases). Don't underplay those facts!!!!! Better get your eyes into books or webpages on that topic if you know nothing about it at all.

    Also, if you'd get your eyes into books/webpages on organic small scale egg and milk production you'd see that there's suffering and pain just as well:

    - cows still get separated from their calves
    - bulls (except for those few individuals [ab]used to breed the next generations) still get killed because they don't give milk and are of no further economic interest after growing to a certain state
    - male chickens/roosters (except for those few individuals [ab]used to breed the next generations) still get killed 'cause they lay no eggs and are of no further economic interest after growing to a certain state
    - laying eggs fuckin' hurts (also no wild bird lays one egg per day, those amounts you talk about are the exploitative result of breeding)
    - having a filled (huge) udder fuckin' hurts
    - giving birth fuckin' hurts..... you don't have to look up the last two things in books you can go ask your mama about them.

    Sorry, if I used some stronger or rougher words in my replies to you but all your pretending that no animal suffers for [your] milk and egg consume just made me sad and a little angry. Suffering and pain aren't just words or abstract concepts.... it doesn't get more serious than having to suffer and if you do not understand that, than go see it for yourself, when a cow gives birth, when a cow doesn't get her udder milked in time or when a no-milk-bull or a no-egg-rooster gets slaughtered.

    With all this I'm not trying to deprive you of the right to lead your own life(-style), I just don't like pretending and felt like having to correct your misconceptions.

    • Albent a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 19 oct. 2011, 18h09m
    I don't know which farms have you seen; in this one, calves are not separated, and bulls don't get killed. Why would them?

    Also, if you believe that keeping chickens and cows is still a bad thing, what should they do? Release them into the wild, so they can get killed by people to be eated? Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

    • mrsqrrl a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 19 oct. 2011, 18h55m
    Well, those chickens and cows exist because they've been bred for production and slaughter. You could also just not breed them, then they wouldn't exist in the first place. It's not as if billions and billions of cows and chickens just live in the forest, and we might as well collect their eggs and milk every now and again.

    • SGDminea a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 20 oct. 2011, 9h25m
    I think continuing this discussion with Albent is pointless. If one is not willing to understand what we are saying, we shouldn't waste time in to this.

    Tonzura koite!
    • embrion44 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 20 oct. 2011, 19h42m
    @Natalka: nie draznij mnie, bo i Kevin Ci nie pomoze ; )

    @Koneserka:
    Praga Poludnie, ale migrowac potrafie i do Centrum. Poza tym bywam i na Ursynowie jak jade do roboty lub na Pradze Polnoc jak jade do drugiej.
    Problem jednak jes taki, ze czas mam 28-30.10, a pozniej dopiero 21-26 listopada. Wg terminarza w pozostale dni nie ma mnie praktycznie w Polsce
    Czemu zapytujesz Koneserko?

    Pozdrawiam,
    Embrion
  • oewrgioer

    in the end it doesn't really matter.
    • zoots14 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 22 oct. 2011, 17h42m
    Fair play to Albent for coming onto a vegan/vegetarian forum and trying to make his point, i don't agree, never will but you've got admire his bollocks even if it's just to get a kick out of winding people up. The milk thing is just weird, twisted and downright wrong on so many levels that just aren't worth going into, if you think about it for even just a second............... Eggs? i'm just not into them, i enjoy being around chickens, they're kind of cool but them or their eggs aren't for my consumption, period (get it?)
    As far as releasing the poor manipulated freaks that are domestic animals into the wild??????????? i'm not out to be evangelical about any aspect of how i live but when people claim their "right" to freedom when they're just doing what they're told and never questioning anything and taking no responsibility for their actions, they're in the worst kind of prison, self imposed and in thrall to the great god money in his cloak of arrogance/ignorance, truth is born of argument and i'm all in favour if it's done with respect but happiness never came at anyone else's expense so dropping in and poking fun at the weird vegan people isn't "our" problem, it's Albent's, i don't tell the flesh fascists they look poorly or they're fat, en route to a heart attack yet they nearly all seem to HAVE to tell me that i look ill and that i'm misguided "you can't change anything" being the mantra of choice, well, i have, i've changed the way i interact with the world i find myself in and i choose to do so free of man's need to play god and his obsession with a tool, that's all i can do and the expoitative fucks who need to kill to feel powerful and have to belittle and make fun of people with belief, passion and commitment can't fucking touch me!!!! now where's the carnivore/omnivore group on this site?

    • Alseri a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 28 oct. 2011, 22h47m

    ...

    My mother told me, my delphos will vanish.

  • stay veggie and help us to keep the meat-price down

    And more generally, every argument consisting in its entirety of a statement going against common sense that it is to be taken, on its face, as some undeniable proof of correctness.

  • Any type of exploitation is abuse. Whether the animal feels pain or not, the fact that you are forcing them into a situation which is out of their control is wrong. Also, taking them out of their natural environment so they can make food for you, or be food for you is also (in my opinion) wrong.

    I've heard all sorts of bullshit from idiots trying to get a rise from me for being a non meat eater. Vegans can also be shit though and take a holier than thou attitude to life which is why those who are chill about the whole thing have got a bad rep that gives fodder to trolls and pricks who like to take advantage of that and ask stupid questions to wind you up. Bleh.

    Anyway, i just always turn round and say 'go read a fucking book' if they wanna know so much about it!

    Don't feed the trolls :P

    • spejsat a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 12 déc. 2011, 16h19m
    I recently talked to a guy that said I should eat fish because since it's a source of omega 3 it's not an animal. Really ._.

    • mrsqrrl a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 24 déc. 2011, 22h14m
    Normally, when I have conversations about the subject, people are quite understanding and bring up reasonable points about farming, consuming and their relation in general. So, so far no actual ridiculous arguments, but a couple of days ago I was at some party where I had the infamous, though probably inevitable discussion. At some point I brought up my veganism and although it was a nice girl to talk to and we both tried to understand eachother's points we were both rather drunk so the conversation just ended up nowhere. Anyway, it was mainly about 'plants are important too' (reasonable, but I eat almost 100% organic, as far as that was the direction that she meant. Not even to mention the massive amounts of plants that are grown just to feed animals in factory farming) and also that veganism was just not realistic because 'it's too extreme'. To the latter I really didn't know what to say apart from "works just fine for me". Besides, I think I made it abundantly clear that in no way I try to convince omnivores going vegan just like that. As a matter of fact I believe that even people doing as little as being a flexitarian or even just making the mental connection between the meat on their plate and the animal that it used to be, are quite admirable. They're already doing a lot more than most people. Not to say, ofcourse, that it's about the same as being vegan, but you get the drift - I think flexitarianism, vegetarianism and so forth are great, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a convinced vegan.
    Anyway, so far not necessarily unreasonable points. But it got really silly when she tried to argue that it is in fact better for the environment to eat animals than vegetables and fruit. (I'm seeing you frowning already...). Yes that's right. The reasoning behind it was that, because meat is so much more nutricious than vegetables and fruit are, in order to replace meat by vegetables and fruit in a diet you need so many vegetables and fruit that in the end it takes in fact less farming land to feed a person with meat than it does to feed the same person with vegetables and fruit...

    Edit - I edited this post like 87 times...

    • zealovs a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 29 déc. 2011, 18h40m
    It tastes good. Therefore, it *is* good and no criticism is allowed.

    • TchikyPouw a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 5 fév. 2012, 16h24m
    My favorite is "So, you only eat vegetables ?", or "We can't live without meat, there are some things who are only in meat"...

    (Sorry for my bad english, I'm french.)

    • maxleal a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 11 fév. 2012, 15h40m
    The argument is, eating cows is an act of self-defense.

    Eating is an act of self-defense.

    FOOD NOT BOMBS

    man, i'm bored

  • The worst 2 arguments I've heard against it are:

    1. Vegetarian is pro-capitalism! As it supports organisations like quorn and vegetarian corporations.
    2. "I couldn't be vegetarian for the same reason why I couldn't live off snacks. I'd never be full."

  • My friend once said:
    - But they don't fell the pain
    - You are vegetarian, but you eat fish, right?
    - I'ts our culture, you have to eat

    This is so hypocrite.

  • Harliquensfly said:
    The worst 2 arguments I've heard against it are:

    1. Vegetarian is pro-capitalism! As it supports organisations like quorn and vegetarian corporations.
    2. "I couldn't be vegetarian for the same reason why I couldn't live off snacks. I'd never be full."


    Oh, no, what? Pro-capitalism. I haven't heard that one yet, but I'd be absolutely floored.

    But yeah yeah, I hear that. "Aren't you always hungry? What do you EAT? You can't eat FOOD." :|

  • I like the "we evolved to eat it" argument.
    Orly? So that's why we are too slow to catch animals unless we keep them fenced in? That's why our teeth are too shitty to cut through meat so we have to use tools? That's why we're the only species on earth (that eats meat) that has to cook it so that we don't get sick when we digest it?

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