The Intelligent Metal-Related Discussion [TM]

 
    • Darkes7 a dit :...
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    • 18 jan. 2010, 21h37m

    The Intelligent Metal-Related Discussion [TM]

    Ah, right, my reply got deleted some time ago and I had no ti... ok, I was too lazy to write them again, but felt like doing it today. I think the topic is too clever to let it die and it's better to have it in a more permanent version, meaning having our own forum thread about it. :d

    Related quotes:
    NoseOfNicko
    "I like System of a Down and at least one song of Slipknot" +1 I hate what bands like Slipknot did to metal though. They're the reason why a lot of people think that metal is only noise. Anyway, I listen to everything that is good. I don't care what that those tr00 metalheads think about that, they're fucking retards. If you ask me, someone who is open minded enough to give a chance to every music genre is a lot more true than someone who hates all of the genres except metal because they're not metal. What's really funny is that those idiots actually enjoy non-metal songs, but they don't want to admit it because think that it would make them untr00. 70% of the bands that I listen to are metal, but I'd rather call myself a music fan than a metalhead.
    Black metal is awesome....................... If you know the right bands. It's easy to call a genre shitty when you only know some of the weakest bands. I also don't think that black metal started any stereotype because, like Razor said, most people don't know anything about it. Metal fans know about it, but people who are not into metal have no idea what it is. But bands like Slipknot, KoRn, etc... are pretty damn famous, so most people know them (and only them) and think that all metal is like that. Death metal (Cannibal Corpse are 10 times more well known that any black metal band), nu metal and hardcore/metalcore are the genres that started the stereotypes. Of course, the stereotypes existed in the early 80's too, but that's just because people are dumb lol.

    Razor745
    I don't think BM started any stereotype. Most people have no idea that Black Metal exists. When they say about screaming, they probably mean Metalcore and sometimes even Death Metal bands, because they don't know how to describe growls. Unless, they've heard Cradle Of Filth, that would explain everything.
    From all BM fans I know, no one takes that trve kvlt or satanic stuff seriously. Many BM fans seem to be actually open-minded and intelligent compared to Thrashers or Death Metallers. But it's true that most Black Metal bands suck, and are not worth wasting time. But there are some great bands like Gehenna, Drudkh, And of course, there are "poser" bands like Cradle Of Filth (they are not even real BM), personally, I don't care if they are "trve" or not but Dani Filth is just fucking annoying :d

    [+ I remember someone also said I only judge bands by their technical skills, but couldn't find it :P]

    Anyway, time for my actual response:
    First, I don't know, maybe I live in some kind of unusual "environment", but metalcore and "nu-metal" isn't so famous around here. Sure, you can see those "dark" looking teenagers with permanent iPod + headphones and Slipknot t-shirt (I see one guy like that quite often actually), but I'm perfectly sure you'd have 40x higher chances asking whether they know Iron Maiden or Metallica rather than Slipknot, KoRn or be it Killswitch Engage. Personally I also have never felt they're uber-famous in any way (actually I found out about the existence of metalcore when I started using The Metal Archives, which was like 2 years ago... there you go about it being image-defining for metal). The people who are somehow interested in that obviously know them, metalheads also usually do (either as Pure Evil And Disgrace For The Name Of Metal or like me, feeling they're bands that can occasionally record something good, but overall "not my cup of tea"), but that's pretty much it. Most of those people I know who feel "metal is screaming and noise and satan aaaaa!!!!" would have absolutely no idea if I asked them what Slipknot is.

    Now, black metal is a different thing entirely. Hell, I guess I'd have far more chances asking about Slipknot or KoRn than Mayhem or Burzum, but that's not where the problem is. If I changed the question to "how do you imagine a metal band", I can give 95% chances the answer would be "white makeup, long hair, leather jacket, completely pointless noise, lyrics about death and Satan". Puzzle - what genre is that? Must be vegetarian progressive grindcore.

    The point is, even though the bands themselves get little attention, they have had a huge negative impact on the whole metal genre already. I'm pretty certain the source is back in the early 90s, where all the moronic "tr00 gr1m necr0 forest" and church-burning attitude started, their vision of themselves being "TRUE metal" and pseudo-satanic atmosphere. I think I don't need to tell you about the songwriting and sound quality of kvlt black metal records, because you probably know enough to understand the point.

    The result is that there are lots of people who hate metal just because all metal is like "underground" black metal they've probably heard somewhere (or they've never actually heard metal, only what people say about it, and they say ^ ) + maybe Iron Maiden and Metallica, but "that's more popular metal". Then you can try playing them, say, Dream Theater, tell them it's also metal, and witness the surprise obviously visible on their face. And where's the dark gr1m makeup, screaming vocals and noise?

    That's pretty much it. But now, that's one side. The other is - I know there are very decent black metal bands, or at least their later discography. Like I had mentioned, Mayhem's "Grand Declaration of War" really impressed and intrigued me. Actually even "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" (I got the title right?) sounded fairly decent, even though not really my style. Same for later Emperor, later Immortal, there also some amazing bands that grew out of black metal and still keep some of the black metal style in their music (Moonspell is the main example and one of my favourite bands ever, there's also Samael, although any black metal disappeared after Eternal... let's forget Above, that's another story entirely). I've also heard (from people listening to nearly all metal + other genres) that Deathspell Omega is a very interesting band. But then, you know.

    It's not kvlt.

    That's what I seriously hate about the elitist black metal society, which seems to be unable to accept _ANY_ kind of changes and they could probably listen to the same album over and over if you put it into 20 different packagings with 20 different band names (you can keep the same cover, if it has a black and white forest or gr1m makeup band photo on it). Look in the Metal Archives, and even if a more revolutionary BM album has good ratings, you'll always find the occasional 0% with the review which is an extended version of "it's not kvlt and it's gay and commercial!!!11". This is my second reason for seriously disliking black metal. With exceptions, obviously.

    And no, I never judge music looking at their technical skills. I'm a fan of U2, for example, which hardly counts as progressive rock. Kreator and Vader are also bands I've always liked, and they definitely don't count as "technical" bands. Some of the many examples. :) Atmosphere is the key to me (unless I'm just looking for straightforward metal), and technical skills are far behind - although it's actually quite often that bands with a certain atmosphere are also quite skilled. DT is an obvious example.

    Ok, that's it. I hope you survived to this point.

    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 18 jan. 2010, 23h06m
    Oh, sweet. Great job Darkes7, thanks for posting this. I'm too lazy to reply now though :p

    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 19 jan. 2010, 19h05m
    If I changed the question to "how do you imagine a metal band", I can give 95% chances the answer would be "white makeup, long hair, leather jacket, completely pointless noise, lyrics about death and Satan"

    I don't think people would mention the corpsepaint. The only band that comes to mind is KISS, but they have nothing to do with death and such themes. There's also Immortal, they are quite famous thanks to their silly corpsepaint, but I don't think many people outside the metal/rock community know them.
    Also, there are many Black Metal bands that don't wear make-up.

    The result is that there are lots of people who hate metal just because all metal is like "underground" black metal they've probably heard somewhere (or they've never actually heard metal, only what people say about it, and they say ^ ) + maybe Iron Maiden and Metallica, but "that's more popular metal". Then you can try playing them, say, Dream Theater, tell them it's also metal, and witness the surprise obviously visible on their face. And where's the dark gr1m makeup, screaming vocals and noise?

    Personally, I don't care what they think. I used to try to explain to people... but now I just don't care. It's the same as any other stereotype. It's their problem if they don't understand that, they're probably just too close-minded or they don't even give it a chance because "no one else does". So they conform to the majority...
    There's isn't much to say about them...

    But from what I've seen quite often in the last couple of months, people don't listen to Metal, not because "it's satanic and evil", but because their friends/relatives/whoever don't listen to it.


    I personally used to hate Extreme Metal. I thought it simply ruined the reputation of other Metal bands and it was just stupid, talentless noise.
    But now, I think in a different way. I still dislike Death Metal in general, and most Black Metal bands.
    I don't like Death Metal mainly because of its fanbase, and the reason why most people listen to it. Listening to Extreme Music just to show off and look "badass" is very childish.
    And I hate the whole satanic imaginery and ideology of Black Metal bands.
    People like Euronymous and Gaahl are just... ughh.... I don't know, but they have so many followers and supporters (even though Euronymous is dead now) just because they are considered kvlt (although Gaahl also has many haters).
    Yet, there are things I like about Black Metal, namely the originality and how it's different from other sub-genres. I also like some of their lyrical themes, many BM bands these days write songs about nature, depression, suicide, misanthropy and similar things. Not that I take them very seriously, I just like that kind of stuff.
    Black Metal is quite diverse as well, we're not talking about trve kvlt Black Metal, but Ambient Black Metal, Progressive BM, Experimental BM etc.


    The whole "kvlt" thing is just stupid, but most Black Metal fans I know don't take this stuff seriously.

    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 19 jan. 2010, 23h27m
    In other words:

    I DONT NO GUISE BUT FOR M3 BLAK MATAL SI A PR3TY COL GENRA OV MUSIK!!!!1 I DONT CARE WUT OTH3R PAOPLA THINK OV EET THERE STUPID!!!!1!!!1!!1!!11!1 WTF LOL

    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 24 jan. 2010, 1h07m
    metal is like hard rock except harder, Lol xD

    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 28 jan. 2010, 0h50m
    khorma said:
    metal is like hard rock except harder, Lol xD


    Lol indeed.

    • OmgItsBeto a dit :...
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    • 28 jan. 2010, 5h47m

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    Modifié par hjbardenhagen le 25 déc. 2010, 19h35m
    • Darkes7 a dit :...
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    • 28 jan. 2010, 23h49m
    Damn, I keep forgetting. Sorry, I'll try to reply during the weekend. Listening to something methul, ofc.

    Words of wisdom indeed. However, not all metal is harder than rock, metals are very varied, also possible combinations can have a lot of options. Like, iron in itself is not that hard, but when you combine it with a bit of several other metals, you get steel and it's totally fucking hard.

    Sorry, you're dealing with a mad scientist here.

    • OmgItsBeto a dit :...
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    • 29 jan. 2010, 18h52m

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    Modifié par hjbardenhagen le 25 déc. 2010, 19h35m
    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 30 jan. 2010, 22h39m
    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 1 fév. 2010, 12h25m
    I used to think all Extreme Metal was just crappy noise, "Death Metal or Black Metal, same crap...."

    The thing about Black Metal is that you have to understand what it really is about, it's completely different from other genres. When I was still into Thrash Metal, Sodom's In The Sign Of Evil EP really fascinated me, it was the first proper Extreme Metal album I actually enjoyed.
    Then I just started listening to Bathory and somehow got into this type of music.

    I still dislike most Extreme Metal bands, but there are some great ones that are worth listening to.

    • OmgItsBeto a dit :...
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    • 5 fév. 2010, 4h26m

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    Modifié par hjbardenhagen le 25 déc. 2010, 19h35m
    • Razor745 a dit :...
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    • 6 fév. 2010, 22h19m
    There's nothing wrong with them. I have an iPod and I use it all the time.

  • I wish I didn't notice the difference between quality. I go for Vinyl when it's available, otherwise flac. But for trips I use an ipod. I've actually filled my 160 gig, and I might need to get another, I'm not Steven Wilson against them....

    • OmgItsBeto a dit :...
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    • 14 juin 2010, 20h04m

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    Modifié par hjbardenhagen le 25 déc. 2010, 19h35m
    • Darkes7 a dit :...
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    • 14 juin 2010, 22h48m
    The whole point isn't the musical quality in itself, which is important but that's not the main issue people like SW (or me, I found myself agreeing 100% with him) have with mp3. The problem is that it takes away the whole point of music as an art, it just reduces it to a bunch of files. I don't understand the idea of listening ALL_THE_TIME to something. For me, listening to an album isn't just putting it in my CD player/record player/winamp and just playing it all the way (and then just putting something else... and then again something else... and wow, I have average 150 scrobbles per day!). It's also the whole experience surrounding it, *focusing* on the music, forming some kind of image in my mind, and then having the album follow me for the next day, or more. Can also work with two albums, sometimes maybe even three. But not the amounts many people listen per day.

    I know it's ridiculous to go on with "back in my day" thinking when I'm not even 20 yet, but I really see, and remember, that people used to care much more about this. An album release was a really important moment (not "lolz i wantz teh leak nao" and having 500 listens of the album on the day it's actually released), and listening was more focused, an album was something important. Now... it indeed has become a bunch of files, and that is sad. Sure, it's a different thing if someone has indeed little of actual free time and listening when going to work or whatever is the only reasonable way of listening - this is when I really see the point of mp3 player and similar. But listening all the time, everywhere (even when it definitely isn't clever, e.g. I'd never walk around a city centre with headphones, not because I'm paranoid but it's just irrational), and then even more on PC when coming home just kills the idea of music, in my opinion at least.

    This is why I understand why people like Steven Wilson are so passionate about the problem and care so much about trying to stop it (even though it's basically impossible, unfortunately). I'm not a musician (not yet at least) and I can see it, and I definitely would see it much more clearly if I was the songwriter of a band that's known for perfectly composed, flowing albums with a strong atmosphere.

    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 15 juin 2010, 13h52m
    Darkes7 said:

    essay

    ok

    • Darkes7 a dit :...
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    • 15 juin 2010, 20h46m
    I disagree.

    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 16 juin 2010, 16h36m
    your a hypocrite

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