• [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 1 nov. 2008, 5h01m

    HaHaHa

    You guys are a joke, you thread Obama as a Messiah, but you don´t realize, no president in the US can change anything, the US is ruled by corporations and banks, not by presidents. In your country banking corporations have way more power than the government, and specially in the US cannot be a change because the 2 parties are just 2 fractions of the same capitalist party. Sure Obama could be a better president than Bush is & even a better person than him, but that doesn´t mean he can change something, in fact that doesn´t even mean he will be a good president, that just means he won´t be as bad as Bush is.

    • Wxnzxn a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 5h30m
    I totally agree with this post, still - Obama's the best the US can come up with, and while he surely can't change as much as he wants to (which means: next to nothing), the very fact that he was elected is a signal that the American population at least moved a little bit away from their idiocy. And maybe in a few years, when they realize that an other president can't change the world, they will be enraged enough to really change some things.

    Well, man can dream, can't he?


    Die Niveaumangel
    (Be) too weird to live, too rare to die(!)
    • lyzzrd a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 5h55m
    "Thread Obama a Messiah?" Is he a needle?

    Metal is best when it's Unknown
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 6h24m
    Where is the Obama as a Messiah thread anyway? Did I miss something?

    • Wxnzxn a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 6h52m
    No, it's just that many of us in Europe (at least I can say this for Germany) really don't get how emotional you are about all this. I think most of us don't realise that being this emotional and having such a show of an election is pretty normal for the US of A.

    We are used to cynicism, realism and very dry, rational politics. But this seems to change here as well (unfortunately in my personal opinion).

    Oh, and I still support Obama, I just hope he can really do at least some of the things he wants to do. Change doesn't come with one new president alone.


    Die Niveaumangel
    (Be) too weird to live, too rare to die(!)
    • lyzzrd a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 7h38m
    I think you really have to spend 8 years under a President who marginalizes you and implies you're a terrorist if you have a dissenting opinion and to watch nonstop hate spewing from a major news network to really appreciate just how negative and how destructive politics had become in this country. It's waking up every day angry because your country is doing disgusting things around the world that most of the civilized world disagrees with. It's losing your pride as you face the rest of the world's righteous anger against you. It's agreeing with the rest of the world when they hate you for actions that a majority of you don't support. And when you agree with the rest of the world, you're suddenly "unAmerican" for holding to your American values, values that once made us great. Things have been turned upside-down and backwards and inside-out for so long here, that to hear positivity and inclusion and rationality again, instead of fear and over-emotionalism, is almost life-changing.

    Obama is so refreshing a change that it's hard not to be (probably over-) enthusiastic about him. His message is one of inclusion and one of healing. We're hurting and we're screwed up. And we need some positive news, so is it any wonder we're probably too happy?

    Metal is best when it's Unknown
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 7h56m
    Well put

    • Lurholm a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 10h43m
    Although I'm inclined to agree with the cynical realism of the first post in this thread, I still think an American president can change some major things. Especially when it comes to US foreign policy, which - like it or not - has a huge influence on the rest of the world.

    Shine those shoes, Bill!
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 5 nov. 2008, 22h36m
    Wxnzxn said:
    No, it's just that many of us in Europe (at least I can say this for Germany) really don't get how emotional you are about all this. I think most of us don't realise that being this emotional and having such a show of an election is pretty normal for the US of A.

    We are used to cynicism, realism and very dry, rational politics. But this seems to change here as well (unfortunately in my personal opinion).

    Oh, and I still support Obama, I just hope he can really do at least some of the things he wants to do. Change doesn't come with one new president alone.

    Well said, in other countries like Germany the elections aren´t so emotional, cause with all respect for all Americans they aren´t as dumb as most Americans are, so they do realize there isn´t a lot that can be changed.So the best option in the elections may be Obama ( I firmly believe his policies are superior than the republicans are) but this doesn´t mean he isn´t the best option America has, in my opinion the best Americans could do is to wake up and understand democracy is just as unfair as Nazism & Stanlinism are, so try to change your government and economy, but by electing presidents this isn´t possible, what you got to do is to demonstrate, to make a revolution.
    lyzzrd said:
    Obama is so refreshing a change that it's hard not to be (probably over-) enthusiastic about him. His message is one of inclusion and one of healing. We're hurting and we're screwed up. And we need some positive news, so is it any wonder we're probably too happy?

    Well he may sound like a refreshing change on HIS OWN campaign, but that DOESN´T mean he will be something special, e.g. in the 30s in Germany people wanted some change and Hitler seemed very revolutionary, he would create more jobs, industrialize Germany and so on, but his own plan ware different. So please, not everything that a campaign says must be right, in most cases it isn´t.
    As a quote from the book "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley says "I rather be unhappy than happy as you living in a fantasy world." so please get serious and see that even they are positive news they don´t help us too much, because of the reasons I explained in this thread before.
    Lurholm said:
    Although I'm inclined to agree with the cynical realism of the first post in this thread, I still think an American president can change some major things. Especially when it comes to US foreign policy, which - like it or not - has a huge influence on the rest of the world.

    Please if you are truly interested in politics watch The Zeitgeist Movie, this shows you who the real power has.

    • lyzzrd a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 1h20m
    Are you seriously comparing Obama to Hitler? I'd love to know how you can even begin to jump to that comparison, because beyond the fact that both speak well, and both are (were) intelligent, their philosophies are completely different.

    Zeitgeist was utter nonsense, btw.

    Metal is best when it's Unknown
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 1h49m
    lyzzrd said:
    Are you seriously comparing Obama to Hitler? I'd love to know how you can even begin to jump to that comparison, because beyond the fact that both speak well, and both are (were) intelligent, their philosophies are completely different.

    Zeitgeist was utter nonsense, btw.

    Hitlers & Obamas ideologies are completely different, but my point was, Obama can tell us in his campaign, he is going to end the war on Iraq, but his plans may be others, like to start more wars. My comparison just said manipulation was already done before & with a lot of success like Hitlers, so Obama could (could=/=will) do something similar (Most candidates, that get elected do it), just not with the same ideology, so my point was never a comparison of ideologies.

    I just refered to The Zeitgeist Movie because the user Lurlholm said:
    I still think an American president can change some major things. Especially when it comes to US foreign policy, which - like it or not - has a huge influence on the rest of the world.

    And in this film it is well explained how the banks have the total control in America so it wasn´t off-the-topic.

    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 2h05m
    lyzzrd said:
    I think you really have to spend 8 years under a President who marginalizes you and implies you're a terrorist if you have a dissenting opinion and to watch nonstop hate spewing from a major news network to really appreciate just how negative and how destructive politics had become in this country. It's waking up every day angry because your country is doing disgusting things around the world that most of the civilized world disagrees with. It's losing your pride as you face the rest of the world's righteous anger against you. It's agreeing with the rest of the world when they hate you for actions that a majority of you don't support. And when you agree with the rest of the world, you're suddenly "unAmerican" for holding to your American values, values that once made us great. Things have been turned upside-down and backwards and inside-out for so long here, that to hear positivity and inclusion and rationality again, instead of fear and over-emotionalism, is almost life-changing.

    Look, my country is poor since it was conquered by the Spanish conquerors and since then we have corruption, tyranny & we don´t have good education , freedom of speech (Search for the countries with most journalists killed pro year & Iraq will be followed by Mexico), so you cannot say your country is as screwed up as mine is. In 2000 the elections were won by the conservatives (Which in their campaign said, would end with corruption & bring this country education, jobs & so on.) after a more than 60 year regime by the liberals, most people supported the conservative party because they were feed up of the liberals; look now at my country & you´ll see a more corrupted, less educated and poorer country than 20 years ago. So please so yourself a favour and don´t believe everything you hear. This is one of the reasons I don´t believe in democracy.

    • Youdy a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 4h24m
    Obama's presidency will bring about no great changes to the workers of the USA or for that matter the workers of the world. He will instead be more of the same just a slightly different shade.

    Will Obama help the US via foreign policy? Maybe but don't forget it is Obama who wants to enlarge the US military and made noises about invading Pakistan is the Pakistani army doesn't do it's job.

    Don't get over excited America because you'll be let down.

    All this being said Obama's election is a progressive thing in American socity and for that I welcome his victory over McCain's.

    The US electorate shouldn't have voted to get things to 'change'. They should have rioted; that brings about change.

    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 4h45m
    Youdy said:
    Obama's presidency will bring about no great changes to the workers of the USA or for that matter the workers of the world. He will instead be more of the same just a slightly different shade.

    Will Obama help the US via foreign policy? Maybe but don't forget it is Obama who wants to enlarge the US military and made noises about invading Pakistan is the Pakistani army doesn't do it's job.

    Don't get over excited America because you'll be let down.

    All this being said Obama's election is a progressive thing in American socity and for that I welcome his victory over McCain's.

    The US electorate shouldn't have voted to get things to 'change'. They should have rioted; that brings about change.

    Exactly

    • lyzzrd a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 5h31m
    Headbanger2510 said:Hitlers & Obamas ideologies are completely different, but my point was, Obama can tell us in his campaign, he is going to end the war on Iraq, but his plans may be others, like to start more wars. My comparison just said manipulation was already done before & with a lot of success like Hitlers, so Obama could (could=/=will) do something similar (Most candidates, that get elected do it), just not with the same ideology, so my point was never a comparison of ideologies.

    I just refered to The Zeitgeist Movie because the user Lurlholm said:
    I still think an American president can change some major things. Especially when it comes to US foreign policy, which - like it or not - has a huge influence on the rest of the world.

    And in this film it is well explained how the banks have the total control in America so it wasn´t off-the-topic.


    Corporations have almost total control in America, not just the banking system. And I'd venture to say they have huge amounts of power throughout the world. And you really don't have to cite a conspiracy movie, since that fact is pretty well known ;-) Anyway, it doesn't matter to me whether your citing it was on topic or not-- I watched the religious portion of the movie, and it was such total crap (and wrong to boot) that I didn't sit around for the rest ;-) Just my personal observation...


    Look, my country is poor since it was conquered by the Spanish conquerors and since then we have corruption, tyranny & we don´t have good education , freedom of speech (Search for the countries with most journalists killed pro year & Iraq will be followed by Mexico), so you cannot say your country is as screwed up as mine is. In 2000 the elections were won by the conservatives (Which in their campaign said, would end with corruption & bring this country education, jobs & so on.) after a more than 60 year regime by the liberals, most people supported the conservative party because they were feed up of the liberals; look now at my country & you´ll see a more corrupted, less educated and poorer country than 20 years ago. So please so yourself a favour and don´t believe everything you hear. This is one of the reasons I don´t believe in democracy.


    Trust me, I'm a realist at the core. I know there won't be radical changes, but there will be enough changes that we can at least start the process of healing from Bush. Obama's done something that no other politician has done in this country for at least a couple of decades: mobilized grassroots interest in the system. It's not so easy to put that genie back in the bottle once it's been let loose. People *will* be more engaged in the process, and that will change quite a lot, and it's the first step in taking our democracy back. Anyway, I'm not going to debate you on the value of democracy since you don't believe in it, but IMHO, it's the best system that currently exists in practice.

    I don't think any of us here considers Obama to be a "messiah." But he is the best thing to happen to American politics in a damned long time, and I'm going to appreciate him and his victory, and then hold his heels to the fire if he tries to renege on policies I consider to be important. And I'm sure a re-energized American electorate will do the same. That's the way the system works and is supposed to work when it's healthy.

    Youdy said: The US electorate shouldn't have voted to get things to 'change'. They should have rioted; that brings about change.

    Yep, riots have worked really well in getting things to change in this country. Historically, they've been nothing more than a footnote.

    Metal is best when it's Unknown
    • Wxnzxn a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 12h10m
    Just to leave another comment here: I am suspicious of every president the economy/wall street/the companies promote, which is what happened with Obama. I am also suspicious of every American President since the 19th century. Obama does make too much sense for the ruling class in my opinion, because he satisfies some of the hunger for change, while presumably most will stay the same. It is fine for you that you can rejoice, unfortunately that is also fine for *ahem* "them" (conspiracy theory detected).

    And Zeitgeist may have many characteristics of a conspiracy movie, and I personally don't like it's style - but it is factual, or lets say the core facts presented, especially considering the monetary society in Addendum are basically true (while their focus on "project Venus" is a little... specific).

    And, ahem "I watched the religious portion of the movie, and it was such total crap (and wrong to boot) that I didn't sit around for the rest" - cite your sources please. In fact the part about religion and Christian mythology might be one of the most provable portions of the movie. Unless you have studied mythology of the antiquity, I guess you didn't really check it, did you? No, I did not do so either, but the movie happened to show it's sources rather well, and from the basic knowledge of the presented myths that I have and further research in books we happened to have and the internet I have not seen any evidence that proves this to be "total crap (and wrong to boot)".

    The fact you realize it's not just the banks, but companies altogether that control society, is very nice. But your later sentence "That's the way the system works and is supposed to work when it's healthy." is wrong, and contradicts your statement that control of the state is not in the hands of the American people.

    In fact you are very right in a way - Obama is the best thing to happen to your political system since a long time. But the fact is: your, no our, whole political system is "corrupt" so to say. He will stabilize it, and if you think about it, let your enthusiasm rest just for a moment, this is exactly what the ruling establishment - the companies, banks and political class, yes even the Bush dynasty - wants. Especially with our recent financial crisis, and I have to stress that there were MANY notions predicting this, in exactly the way it happened (the crisis, not Obama being voted as President, that was relatively easy to predict in the last few weeks).

    This will never sound right to you, for I am highly biased in my opinions, as every human being . We all as human beings are doomed to have our own, personal opinion and regard it as truth. Fact is: Whenever our very foundations of believe are attacked, we have physical reactions, mood changes, aggression, it's not exactly a thing we control that much. We can only hope but to have an opinion that overlaps with reality, and question ourselves as often as possible, searching for empirical evidence, and even then we can't be sure. But it helps to question ourselves and others, ESPECIALLY when we are overcome with feelings, as just now, because after 8 years of stupidity an intelligent president was elected.


    Die Niveaumangel
    (Be) too weird to live, too rare to die(!)
    • Wxnzxn a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 12h22m
    Wait, and I forgot something:

    lyzzrd sagte:
    Are you seriously comparing Obama to Hitler? I'd love to know how you can even begin to jump to that comparison, because beyond the fact that both speak well, and both are (were) intelligent, their philosophies are completely different.

    Zeitgeist was utter nonsense, btw.


    GODWIN'S LAW!


    Die Niveaumangel
    (Be) too weird to live, too rare to die(!)
    • Youdy a dit :...
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    • 6 nov. 2008, 13h52m
    lyzzrd said:
    Youdy said: The US electorate shouldn't have voted to get things to 'change'. They should have rioted; that brings about change.

    Yep, riots have worked really well in getting things to change in this country. Historically, they've been nothing more than a footnote.


    Thats because they don't want workers to realise that they work; and for far better than elections at that.

    And there is an obvious sign that Obama is just another puppet of the ruling class - they donated millions of dollars to his campaign.

    • Manowar1 a dit :...
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    • 18 nov. 2008, 3h48m
    Lurholm said:
    Although I'm inclined to agree with the cynical realism of the first post in this thread, I still think an American president can change some major things. Especially when it comes to US foreign policy, which - like it or not - has a huge influence on the rest of the world.

    Obama to change the US foreign policy?? LOL = The tail to wag the dog.
    You should have said something politically irrelevant, like abortion, welfare - these he can change. Foreign policy?? Forget about it.
    http://www.last.fm/group/Fuck+Obama/forum/103241/_/474267

    • Lurholm a dit :...
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    • 18 nov. 2008, 10h19m
    Hm, well, maybe I have a little too much faith in American democracy. I'm just thinking - imagine if someone like Jimmy Carter had been president in the 1980's instead of Ronald Reagan; don't you think that would have made a difference to the people of Central America?

    Shine those shoes, Bill!
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 18 nov. 2008, 22h39m
    I don´t think so, America´s presidents are and will always be serving the ruling class so there is no difference from on to another.

    • Lurholm a dit :...
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    • 19 nov. 2008, 8h32m
    Well, I was more thinking in terms of warfare against other countries. The Reagan administration spent $1 000 000 per day to fight the democratically elected Sandinista government in Nicaragua in the 80's. That included weapons and military training for the Contras, which in turn did major damage on the already burdened little country. Would the Carter administration really have done the same? Would JFK?

    Shine those shoes, Bill!
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 19 nov. 2008, 22h23m
    Lurholm said:
    Well, I was more thinking in terms of warfare against other countries. The Reagan administration spent $1 000 000 per day to fight the democratically elected Sandinista government in Nicaragua in the 80's. That included weapons and military training for the Contras, which in turn did major damage on the already burdened little country. Would the Carter administration really have done the same? Would JFK?

    I know what you´re talking about and that my friend, was actually my point, the ruling class wants the president to make wars so he can spend more money and the banks have to produce more money and credit with it, and the government has to pay even more money back to the banks, this way the banks get richer and richer and this method was used over and over again, since the Federal Money Supply was created. Besides that the "Sandinista Movement" was left winged, and guess what, the ruling class doesn´t want some leftist to get on the power so they can still be the ruling class, so they needed to make the left wingers disappear to keep the power, and the best thing they could do was a war against them. So this could had happened with or without Reagan, all Amarican presidents to the date are and have been anti-leftist. And why do always people say such great things from JFK? What great things did he do?

    • Manowar1 a dit :...
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    • 26 nov. 2008, 7h53m
    Headbanger2510 said:
    And why do always people say such great things from JFK? What great things did he do?

    This speech:
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-3T3gWKURc8&feature=related

    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
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    • 21 déc. 2008, 17h51m
    Everybody"s god is on the spot now....It is sick that they added Barack and Michelle Obama figurines to the nativity scene. Ill. governer trying to sell the senate seat...mmmmm...oh by the way...Know who was #1 on the list?....Yes it was an Iranian born broad...Lokks like it has already benn confirmed where most of Obama's campain money came from....You will all see that your god is nothing but a studdering fake.

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