Forum » Feedback and Ideas

Automated & manual Artist disambiguation: How to drastically improve this site,…

 
  • Sekir said:
    Disambiguation by contry/language is senseless. For example , and we have two japanese bands called Vivid.
    And Pandora and Lastfm are different.


    It would be a more simple, small solution that can stop two very different artists from very different languages. They could have done that years ago while they pretend to work on this music brainz thing.

    Pandora and Lastfm aren't different for my needs, I come to them to listen to a station to find new music. Mine are polluted with Polish crap because of Last.fm not knowing what's going on. The Last.fm social network thing is nifty but worthless to me. Spotify is also pretty nice for a music service although it's heavily playlist based. Anyway they're all music services and pretending their different to justify a basic feature missing is desperation.

    • DFA1979 a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 10 mars 2012, 9h03m
    tomstockmail said:
    It would be a more simple, small solution that can stop two very different artists from very different languages.
    Assuming that Polish people are listening to the Polish band and Americans to the American band is nowhere near justifying that word. It does nothing for half of the world (what do you do when a Finnish guy listens to one?), makes really simplistic assumptions while doing nothing to check they're accurate (you're creating two pages which mix up both artists, that's no better than having one which does so), and worst of all it's not even generalisable (both Aes Danas are French, how do you apply this here?).

    Something which doesn't solve half of the cases, does practically nothing to check it's solved the rest correctly, and can't be applied to most instances of the problem isn't a solution. It's just changing the problem.

    Pandora and Lastfm aren't different for my needs, I come to them to listen to a station to find new music.Tough. Your needs aren't the only thing that drives last.fm. If you're only using it as a radio station to discover new music then yeah, the two are the same for you. But last.fm does a whole bunch of other stuff too. Pandora's similarity classifications involve a lot of very hands-on work from people analysing music. Last.fm uses large scale crowd-sourced data to drive its analysis. Both methods have their advantages and drawbacks. One of the drawbacks of last.fm's method is that the data can't be realistically filtered. There will always be 'noise' (badly tagged tracks, etc.), and figuring out which artist is meant when there are many with the same name is orders of magnitude harder.

    Anyway they're all music services and pretending their different to justify a basic feature missing is desperation.There's no pretending involved, they are all different. You can tell from the fact they do totally different things from each other. "tomstockmail doesn't use the things that make them different" isn't the same thing as "they're not different".

    • LondonOwl7 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 10 mars 2012, 14h35m
    One of many issues I am noticing however is that the site appears to be predicated on the idea that everyone tags, names or arranges their music in the exact same way on their various devices.

    Much of the mess on this website, some examples being:
    1. 4 versions of one album

    2. Korean artists with a Hangul name and a Roman name;

    3. 20 versions of one song that hasn't been remixed;

    4. Artists being differentiated by dots in their initials because no-one has bothered to fix the multiple artists problem;

    5. Difficulty merging plays when an artist ends up with two pages, etc, etc...

    seems to arise because the system hasn't recognised that XX million users, speaking 70+ languages, using maybe 15+ scripts, who may or may not have different focuses on their music arrangements, are not ALL going to be tagging things in the exact same way on their MP3s.

    There are many areas for example with the unrealistic expectation that people should tag music in scripts they don't read, so if I listen to Korean or Chinese music, for example, but don't speak the languages (yet), I am apparently expected to obtain the required keyboard setting, de-romanise the artist name on my MP3 so that I can no longer tell the difference between any of the tracks on the album except by an educated guess and have them scrobbled up in that way. Equally true for perhaps the person who hasn't learnt a Latin script language yet and scrobbles in Cyrillic.

    Surely if the site wants the tagging system to be neat, it needs to accept that the unification must happen on the site, so for example those 20 versions of one song should be matched to the single agreed title, allowing MANUAL CORRECTION where required or where a first scrobble is being made.

    If an artist in a non-Latin language ends up with two pages, the system needs to be able to match both the Latin and non-Latin name to a single page and have the two names co-exist.

    It seems that the fact that there can be no change between one's MP3 and what eventually shows up on the site, except via an extremely limited auto-correction system, and by increasingly pedantic work-arounds for artist differentiation, none of which actually solve the obvious problem, means there will never be anything like the neatness we have on say Wikipedia, which I should add easily differentiates between 100s of people with the same name.

    Assuming that Polish people are listening to the Polish band and Americans to the American band is nowhere near justifying that word. It does nothing for half of the world (what do you do when a Finnish guy listens to one?), makes really simplistic assumptions while doing nothing to check they're accurate


    I agree, doing it by nationality is ridiculous, suppose an American listens to the Polish band and vice-versa?

    However, the fundamental problem is that Last.fm seems to think it can do this without post-scrobble input. It can't.

    शांति में, बहुत शक्ति है| अगर हम धैर्य रखते तो आचे हैं|
  • DFA1979 said:
    makes really simplistic assumptions while doing nothing to check they're accurate



    The point of what I said is that it's a much better and temporary solution in place of what they have now, which doesn't work. Instead, for the entirety of it's existence, Last.FM decided to go with a system that's completely wrong instead of a method that would be sometimes wrong.

    DFA1979 said:
    Last.fm uses large scale crowd-sourced data to drive its analysis.


    And it's not working. They could use the crowd surfing and be able to tell the tracks played by an artists by different names are different artists because it's unlikely that the track name and the artist name are the same. That's crowed sourcing. Right now, Last.FM fails to provide any method whatsoever for bands of different names.

    LondonOwl7 said:
    I agree, doing it by nationality is ridiculous, suppose an American listens to the Polish band and vice-versa?


    Indeed, it wouldn't be a perfect solution and some people end up getting screwed still. But it's much less of a problem than the one that exists now which has two completely different artists listening to two completely different genres that gets combined for everyone.

    • DFA1979 a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 11 mars 2012, 11h52m
    tomstockmail said:

    The point of what I said is that it's a much better and temporary solution
    It really isn't a solution, never mind 'much better'.

    in place of what they have now, which doesn't work.Neither does yours…

    DFA1979 said:
    Last.fm uses large scale crowd-sourced data to drive its analysis.


    And it's not working.
    I'm not talking about the separation of same-name artists, I'm talking about the analysis for recommendations. While there are certainly issues in that, this being one of them, I hardly think you can say it 'doesn't work' overall.

    They could use the crowd surfing and be able to tell the tracks played by an artists by different names are different artists because it's unlikely that the track name and the artist name are the same. That's crowed sourcing. Right now, Last.FM fails to provide any method whatsoever for bands of different names.not really sure what the first half of that meant, but I agree with the conclusion. Last.fm currently does nothing about same-name artists, and that is a bad thing. But your suggestion would do a really terrible job of dealing with it. I don't see the benefit of a 'solution' that doesn't actually solve the problem. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. And this would very definitely not be doing it right. Implementing a crappy solution that doesn't work half the time is a waste of effort. It doesn't have to be perfect but it has to be way better than assuming (with zero checks) that they're listening to the one from their country (which might be none of them. or might be more than one. and would lead to any plays of Nirvana by anybody in the UK being credited to a 1960s prog-rock band).


    Indeed, it wouldn't be a perfect solution and some people end up getting screwed still. But it's much less of a problem than the one that exists now which has two completely different artists listening to two completely different genres that gets combined for everyone.It's not less of a problem. It's the same problem, except now you have it twice. Instead of one page combining both artists, you have a page which combines both artists (as listened to by Americans) and a page which combines both (as listened to by Polish people). How is two mixed-up pages better than one? And I'm yet to see any suggestion of what you do for people who aren't from the same country as any of them…

    • LondonOwl7 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 11 mars 2012, 14h14m
    I don't see why you would half fix a problem instead of fixing it properly, the nationality proposal apart from being perverse is at best a sticking plaster. Give us some way of verifying which artist we mean, and the problem essentially goes away: If there are 10 acts named 'Artist X', and I scrobble a track by Artist X, let me tell you whether I mean X1, X2, X5 or indeed a new 'X11'. You can then assume that the next time I send Artist X, I mean the one I told you before, unless I tell you otherwise.

    I feel that the system they say are working on isn't going to allow this, still rigidly relying on some magical ability to guess which artist I mean, eventually doing nothing more than multiplying the mess.

    शांति में, बहुत शक्ति है| अगर हम धैर्य रखते तो आचे हैं|
  • DFA1979 said:
    Neither does yours…


    Does. And much better than it is now.

    LondonOwl7 said:
    ...If there are 10 acts named 'Artist X', and I scrobble a track by Artist X, let me tell you whether I mean X1, X2, X5 or indeed a new 'X11'. You can then assume that the next time I send Artist X, I mean the one I told you before, unless I tell you otherwise.


    This would be ideal and also works.

    • DFA1979 a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 11 mars 2012, 22h28m
    tomstockmail said:
    DFA1979 said:
    Neither does yours…


    Does. And much better than it is now.
    Let's re-iterate here:

    Your 'solution' fails if the listener is not from the same country as any of the artists.

    It fails (quite spectacularly so) if they are from the same country as one, but listening to another (how popular would 1960s prog-rock Nirvana appear to be in the UK?)

    It fails if there is more than one artist from the same country (c.f. Aes Dana).

    That is not 'working'. That is taking one set of bad data and splitting it into multiple sets of bad data. Either way, you have bad data.

    Keeping them on one page with a notice that it accounts for multiple artists isn't a solution, but at least it's honest. You're trying to claim artists are split when all you've done is split their listeners by nationality/residence.

    (If you reply, please do something more than just ignoring the gaping flaws and asserting that it's a good solution. What happens when guy in Germany listens to Hurt? Do you assume they're listening to the American one or the Polish one? Or do you keep another page for those who aren't from either country?)

    • DFA1979 a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 11 mars 2012, 22h28m
    [oops, double-posted]

  • DFA1979 said:
    Your 'solution' fails if the listener is not from the same country as any of the artists.


    My temporary (as always said) solution does fail these people. It's always been a temporary item to be placed while the Last.FM devs figure out how to program.

    In the meantime, EVERYONE is getting screwed by current Last.FM methods. So my way is better by default. The rest of your reply was too long, therefore I didn't read.

    • DFA1979 a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 14 mars 2012, 10h01m
    tomstockmail said:
    My temporary (as always said) solution does fail these people. It's always been a temporary item to be placed while the Last.FM devs figure out how to program.
    And for any artist who's even minorly notable, 'these people' going to be most of their listeners. And don't forget the other two groups I listed… (well, I guess you can't technically 'forget' what you were too lazy to read in the first place).

    In the meantime, EVERYONE is getting screwed by current Last.FM methods. So my way is better by default.Current method is to admit that there's a problem. Don't separate them until you can do it properly.

    Your method does literally nothing for the majority of users; for the users it does affect, it can either get it right, or make it even worse than before (specifically wrong, rather than ambiguous) - and which of those happens is determined to a significant extent by luck. To do that and claim you've fixed anything is either dishonest or stupid.

    The rest of your reply was too long, therefore I didn't read.Short attention span. Explains a lot.

  • Tom seriously STFU and read the thread

    I addressed stuff you think is new and clever and your idea as failures 2 years ago. Region and language disambiguation WON'T WORK.

    ARTIST>ALBUM>TRACK in conjunction would solve 95% of all disambiguation issues. I'm not reiterating how the other %5 could be solved for the umpteen million time.

    To the staff post, I believe it when I see it, and it does nothing to address one of the core shortfalls of the site, lack of user ability to edit site information in a more "discogs" style to make up for the difference in errors that an algorithm like musicbrainz won't pick up.

    But by all means, wow me.

    My expectations couldn't get any possibly lower at this point. I figured after the whole CBS takeover and softkill agenda they had for this site, that you would just allow it to wither and die.

    Oops, you kind of did.

    But I think if you did enough to fix these core issues addressed in this thread and used my tips to re-engage your user base you could build it back up.

    • elliot_jr a dit :...
    • Abonné
    • 1 avr. 2012, 17h41m

    Music label responsibility

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that it is the music labels that are uploading albums when their page has a proper tracklisting section with playable tracks, rather than a user-entered, text-only list in the "About this album" section?

    If this is the case, then there needs to be some sacking/banning/serious talking to of the label staff who are uploading this information. I understand that some pages will have been generated by user scrobbles, usually indicated by it being a bare-bones page with the correct artwork uploaded and not much else, but others (those that I am assuming have been edited by label staff) are frequently riddled with errors.

    One of the things that seems to be particularly good at messing up scrobbles is when a track has a featured artist, even if you embed this information in the track name. It's so frustrating that you can have everything correctly labelled in your music library which should thus scrobble perfectly, yet it still cocks up. The most ridiculous example I've found of this is Mariah Carey Boyz II Men Mariah Carey feat. Boyz II Men, I mean who would scrobble this idiocy?!

    I've also noticed that sometimes albums scrobble correctly for a time and then, I am guessing after some form of site-based update, it starts messing up. As an example, I played the Janet Jackson album The Best for a couple of months hiccup free, then, all of a sudden, some of the tracks arbitrarily started scrobbling to the artist page Janet which is Janet Jackson as well, so is unnecessary and only serves to mess up scrobble counts for everyone.

    I think a more draconian, stream-lined scrobbling needs to take place, because I imagine many of these errors are caused by some of the ridiculous and incorrect ways (i.e. spelling errors) people are labelling their music.

    As a fan of Korean pop, I have recently stumbled upon a strange and redundant way, many users seem to be happy scrobbling. From my point of view, it concerns an artist in particular, called (in English) Girls' Generation. However they also have the Korean version of their name here 소녀시대, and the Japanese version of their name here 少女時代, with albums uploaded, again I'm guessing by the labels concerned. Now I surely can't be the only person to think it nuts to have at least three distinct pages for the exact same artist. OK, they have released albums in (mainly) Korean, Japanese and English under the relevant versions of their name, but it is still the same group, with exactly the same members, many times the same song just sung in a different language. As a counterpart to the dividing up of artists with the same name, artists such as Girls' Generation need to also be grouped together on a single page to streamline the site and make it more accurate, surely? Perhaps in this situation, like somebody above mentioned about how when differentiating artists with the same name you could have a pop-up asking you who you mean, in cases such as with Girls' Generation a similar thing should happen, possibly asking you how you would like the artist listed on your page, i.e. in English, Korean or Japanese to suit the language you best understand?

    I think the most frustrating thing about Last FM is seeing how brilliant and informative it could be if it wasn't for all these little niggles caused by frequently arbitrary mis-scrobbles.

    • LondonOwl7 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 3 avr. 2012, 21h16m

    Re: Music label responsibility

    elliot_jr said:
    Perhaps in this situation, like somebody above mentioned about how when differentiating artists with the same name you could have a pop-up asking you who you mean, in cases such as with Girls' Generation a similar thing should happen, possibly asking you how you would like the artist listed on your page, i.e. in English, Korean or Japanese to suit the language you best understand?


    Exactly, and infinitely better than the current system which for Girls Generation would be: 'tag it in Hangul whether you can read it or not otherwise you are tagging it wrong'. Palpably absurd.

    शांति में, बहुत शक्ति है| अगर हम धैर्य रखते तो आचे हैं|
    • [Utilisateur supprimé] a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 3 avr. 2012, 23h05m
    Something needs to be done, it's crazy that a website of this calibre can't differentiate artists with the same name. As a perfect example of how badly wrong this can go look at Orchid - it's like a civil war over there! The 90's screamo band is by far the most influential out of all 6, however the doom metal one is a more contemporary and mainstream band and so they're doing their best to take over the page.

    Can't you just cross-check with Discog.com or something?

  • Re: Music label responsibility

    elliot_jr said:
    Correct me if I'm wrong,


    You're wrong, Lfm builds most of its data from people scrobbling.

  • [spam]

    [spam]

    Modifié par Ziomek2000 le 11 avr. 2012, 5h46m
    • SaleSupra7 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 11 avr. 2012, 13h07m

    [spam]

    [spam]

    Modifié par Ziomek2000 le 11 avr. 2012, 13h16m
    • SaleSupra7 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 11 avr. 2012, 13h07m

    [spam]

    [spam]

    Modifié par Ziomek2000 le 11 avr. 2012, 13h16m
  • said:
    Something needs to be done, it's crazy that a website of this calibre can't differentiate artists with the same name. As a perfect example of how badly wrong this can go look at Orchid - it's like a civil war over there! The 90's screamo band is by far the most influential out of all 6, however the doom metal one is a more contemporary and mainstream band and so they're doing their best to take over the page.

    Can't you just cross-check with Discog.com or something?


    That was one of exact things I proposed. Still nothing has been done about this. It really is shameful. I just visited another page where fans are fighting over the pictures Ra

    • danifuku a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 2 déc. 2012, 1h49m

    fed up

    It really is ridiculous. Is there any alternative to last.fm?
    I never use the radio. I just like the stats.
    I'm ready to jump ship if there's something else out there that I can use that doesn't confuse artists.

    • DarkElvick a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 2 déc. 2012, 14h56m
    I wish last.fm allowed people the ability to tell last.fm who we're listening to.

    I'd gladly go out of my way to keep my library clean.

    "Is this Artist (1) or Artist (2)?"

    Forgo the entire automatic crap, and just let us do it.

    Last.fm is so half baked. It's supposed to have user generated shit, but it won't let users do hardly anything that would be useful. Like actually do something to redirect improper tags, fill out album track lists, fix album track lists, remove useless videos, etc. You know stuff that make the site less of a POS.

    Because now, we basically have to deal with it all. Because reporting is bullshit, and even groups dedicated to 'helping' aren't a good alternative.

  • I miss Last.FM when it actually worked for what I wanted to hear. Now I can't even set up a "Japanese Rock" station without getting artists who are entirely out of my search / tag criteria. I thought that Japanese bands having really unusual and obscure names would help with them not being confused with western artists, but I guess I thought wrong. And this isn't even just an issue with Japanese bands, this has been happening to me while trying to listen to LapFoxTrax stuff, too. I'd really like to be able to choose the Truxton I -wanted- to hear and not be forced to press the skip button because Last decided to start playing some acoustic guitar group.

    With the J-Rock stuff, that's especially annoying because "hey, maybe I wanted to hear what that band sounded like but nope, have to skip it because it played the same-named western band instead..." So I have to wait and keep skipping until I actually get a track from that artist/band instead of what I -DON'T- want to hear.

    I don't want to just up and leave Last for Pandora, tbh, Pandora sucks for the kind of stuff -I- want to listen to. And many a band I have grown to love, I discovered through Last. I know that since the Music Genome Project is a Pandora thing you guys probably wouldn't wanna use that, since it's rival tech or whatever.

    But what about this... there's this site called PhoneZoo, it allows users to upload mp3 or wav files and send them to their phone via text message to be used as a ringtone. PhoneZoo uses some kind of waveform analyzing software to detect and compare songs to weed out the copyrighted material. Couldn't Last implement something similar and use that to compare tracks?

    I've been noticing that griefers really like to set up J-Rock fans for a redirect to a song mislabled as being by 己龍 (Kiryu) and titled "So F*cking Gay."

    http://www.last.fm/music/%E5%B7%B1%E9%BE%8D/_/So+fucking+gay

    I really wish that the listener got an option to pick. Like you'd be prompted with a list of the artists with the same name and you'd get to put a check-mark beside the one you -wanted- to hear. In the event it got to a page of similarly named artists a timer would count down giving you 20 seconds to check-mark the one in the list you wanted to hear, once those 20 seconds ran out it'd automatically play the first name in the list (OOOOORRRRR, in the event that artists disambiguation becomes reality for Last.FM, the one that has tags most close to the criteria you defined - for instance, if had typed "Japanese Rock" into my "create a station" bar, the "check-mark an artist" page would auto default to the Japanese Visual Kei band, Nightmare -instead- of the french power metal band, Nightmare).

    I can go around tagging "Juka" the french rapper as "not the juka from moi dix mois" and "not japanese rock" all I want to, but if they're both using the same page and the same name code then it really doesn't do any good because the only thing I am tagging is a song or an album.

    Also, could anyone tell me why my Last.FM player occasionally has skips/pops? I'm on cable, I can listen to shoutcast streams no problem, so I don't get it... maybe something in my settings? I don't recall that being a problem when I first started using Last back in '04, and my comp back then was slow as a tortoise.

    And another thing, what about bands with unusual characters or punctuation in their names? For instance, I would love to be able to set up a station to listen to the german industrial band OOMPH! and artists similar to them, but when I type in OOMPH! I'm told "this artist is not yet streamable" I take out the exclamation mark, and it let me through, but the things it played after that were all in english.

    Okay wtf... the "Rammstein" station I made just played this....
    http://www.last.fm/music/Jill+Paquette

    Srsly, Last... you want me to believe this easy listening Christian
    music sung in english is actually German Industrial??? -.-
    This goes beyond the "same name" problem, this is a genre
    relevance / relevance to the style of the target band problem...

    What's next guiz??? Ya gunna start playing some
    Country Music when I make an Eminem station?

    Sekir said:
    Disambiguation by country / language is senseless.
    For example, we have two japanese bands called Vivid.
    And Pandora and Lastfm are different.

    Yeah, one is Vivid and the other is ViViD.
    Why can't Last.FM have case sensitivity???
    Oh rigggggght, because then we'd have:

    Dir en grey
    DIR EN GREY
    Dir En Grey


    Nevermind....

    • RAM237 a dit :...
    • Utilisateur
    • 4 déc. 2012, 6h17m
    Well, I am totally not against the Discogs-like model (since I find their library structure very nice), but there's still lots of pitfalls when we talk about Last.FM.
    For example, your suggestion to parse the scrobbled track name to identify "feat.", "vs.", "pres.", etc words. This is impossible! Let's look at the track "MC GeeDay pres. 5th Floor (feat. Son) - Moment". And what if the track itself is called "A feat. B" and I don't want it to be parsed into "A" and "B", because this is how I named my song?

    And so on....

    My music project:
  • DarkElvick said:
    I wish last.fm allowed people the ability to tell last.fm who we're listening to.

    I'd gladly go out of my way to keep my library clean.

    "Is this Artist (1) or Artist (2)?"

    Forgo the entire automatic crap, and just let us do it.

    Last.fm is so half baked. It's supposed to have user generated shit, but it won't let users do hardly anything that would be useful. Like actually do something to redirect improper tags, fill out album track lists, fix album track lists, remove useless videos, etc. You know stuff that make the site less of a POS.

    Because now, we basically have to deal with it all. Because reporting is bullshit, and even groups dedicated to 'helping' aren't a good alternative.



    At least I tried to bring it to their attention. I knew it was all bad when CBS bought them out.

Les utilisateurs anonymes ne peuvent pas poster de messages. Merci de vous connecter ou de créer un compte pour pouvoir intervenir dans les forums.